2011 26
What keeps Spain together
Published by MartinVarsavsky.net in MV with No Comments
In Spain where I most live, and I say mostly because we travel so much, there are parts of the country, Basques, Catalans, that would like to become independent. Or let’s say there are some people in some parts of the country that would like to become a new country (because I understand that if there was a referendum say in Catalonia and everyone who lives there voted the “independistas” would lose). Why? I see two trends that are “gluing” Spain together in spite of its different cultures. One is demographics. Native Spaniards have one of the lowest birth rates in the world and if the population of Spain does not shrink it’s because of immigrants who are 12% of the population but have a quarter of all new babies. As an immigrant myself and father of 5 I know that immigrants do not care about issues related to nationalism. My children consider the nationalisms of Spain a problem of the past, irrelevant to them. As a family, we already moved to another country Spain, and have a hard time thinking of that country itself moving to another country or becoming a smaller different nation. The second trend is the accelerated increase in the national debt in the context of a European and global financial crisis. If a part of Spain wanted to split up now, say Catalonia, they would have to agree with Spain’s creditors what part of their debt corresponds to Catalonia and that would be tougher than all the discussion around language and culture. We are a country partly united by its obligations. Maybe if things get really bad, like in Greece, there could be a fragmentation of Spain. But in terms of GDP over debt Spain is still only at 70% and Greece close to 200%. So we are not there yet.
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Alejandro Pérez on September 26, 2011 ·
The independentist discussion really is for the old people or for politics who like speak about this and dont work for a country with important problems like jobs, economy or education. For the rest of spanish people this is only for stupids.
Sergio Marin on September 27, 2011 ·
In a way, I think that secessionists believe that Catalonia’s bad situation is Spain’s fault. Basically, that Catalonia would be a great nation by itself, but together with Spain, it suffers from unemployment, debt, spending cuts… That’s pretty much their line of thought in a nutshell.
It’s very, very wrong indeed, of course, Catalonia has many faults of its own, and shares many of Spain’s faults too. Plus, having to leave the EU for a few years after independence to gain readmission (which wouldn’t even be secured), economically speaking, I really don’t see that happening.
Socially speaking, much of Catalonia’s population has non-Catalan ancestry. As myself. I am a second-generation Catalan, but all my grandparents were born in Murcia. Meaning, I guess roughly a third of Catalonia, let’s say, would actually leave Catalonia at first sight of further opression to the Spanish part of our identity (citizenship, language, etc.).
As for me, I’m leaving it before, even. Of course, there are many more reasons involved, but one of the reasons I’m moving to England next week to do my degree is because over here I feel forced to study in Catalan and I don’t get to choose to study anything in Spanish. So I move to England, in a way, to get away from all this… uncertainty, all this social unrest which is starting to be prevalent right here in Catalonia.
It’s a pity only those things keep Spain together, and if you’re right, it won’t hold on without splitting apart much longer, I believe.
Parq on September 27, 2011 ·
There was an (unofficial) referendum in Catalonia during the last year, ending over march.
80% of votes was for independence. But only 20% of population has voted, so more of 80% people didn’t agree about independence or doesn’t care.
Jordi Armengol on September 27, 2011 ·
I can’t agree with your views. You and your sons don’t care about what you call nationalisms because you live in a “Spanish” region of Spain. In Catalonia you have to choose if you want to be a Catalan or a Spanish. And this is so because although what we currently know as Spain is nothing but the ruins of a very diverse empire there is a Spanish nationalist project to build a nation called Spain based on the rules, customs and language of Castile. So the real problem is the clash between two projects the Catalan nation and the Spanish nation.
xl on September 27, 2011 ·
One of your premises are wrong.
Cathalonia shouldn’t assume a part of spanish Debt; because cathalonia Fiscal balance with Spain is very negative, so the debt should be paid by the regions that are spending this money, If Cathalonia lost tens of billions because the state transfer it’s taxes to other regions, why Cathalans should assume part of the debt created by this crazy regions. Check the public accounts of Andalucia, Extremadura… They are the responsibles of the debt, they have an amazing number of public employees, they have an inasumible part of his population reciving economic subsides for not working, They created the PER http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_de_Empleo_Rural (each rural worker that can prove that has worked 35 days, recives an unemployment salary for the next six months)…. That’s one of the stupidities that politicians have created to buy votes, and that’s one of the causes that explains why Andalucia and extremadura are not capable to move to the new century…
So this regions destroys all the saves of Cathalonia and other regions, and they help to create a gorgeus debt, so why cathalans should pay?
xl on September 27, 2011 ·
Sorry I made a mistake;
The APSA (new name for the PER) provides 6 MONTHS of unemployment for each 20 DAYS that you have worked.
I said 35 days but ZP had reduced beafore the last elections. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEPSA
Jeronimo on September 28, 2011 ·
What a load of nonsense.
Spanish debt, as a percentage of GDP, is lower than that in France, Germany, UK, Italy, Belgium, Ireland or Grece, (of course).
As for countries with nationalistic debates, Belgium has been 10 months with out government because parties at one and the opposite side cannot reach an agreement… they have lower natality and double the debt. My money is on them if we are betting who has all the cards to split apart. Closely followed by the UK. Which at the end of the day its own name says it is a union of kingdoms. Neither Catalonia nor the Basque Country have ever been independent.
Spain is together because we want to be so. Any referendum regarding national integrity has to ask the whole of the populations. We are a democracy and no citizen has more rights than any other. If anyone has the right to a vote, everyone has the right to that vote and the overwhelming majority of spaniards do not give a tosh about splitting the country.
Teaching on September 28, 2011 ·
JERONIMO
You must return to school!!!
You said this false premise: “Neither Catalonia nor the Basque Country have ever been independent.” I know that Spanish nationalist love to lie about Cathalan history, but you can not justify your speech with quotes that are untrue.
If you need to use lies to defend your ideas, that’s proves that your ideas aren’t good.
Independence of Cathalonia from France starts on 988, with the end of Caroling dinasty.
pep on September 28, 2011 ·
is there any reason why spaniards don’t like catalans to be independent ? maybe because the fiscal debt that suffers Catalonia is about 22.000 milions € per year ? we are fed up that the Spanish State to discriminate against Catalonia. There is only one way for us: the independence !
Jeronimo on September 28, 2011 ·
#9 Untrue.
Check your facts.
In 988 Catalonia was half invaded by the moors, as most of the rest of the iberian peninsula. Almanzor was in Barcelona. Is that what you call independence? Not to mention that it still was under the power of the kings of France…. until 1258 when with the Treaty of Corbeil it passed to depend of Aragón.
Spain, wich is what we are talking about, did not even exist as an state or kingdom then.
Jeronimo on September 28, 2011 ·
#10
Sorry Pep, do you think that a poor neighbourhood in Madrid outskirts owes any debt to any other rich neighbourhood in Madrid?
Do you think rich neighbourhood have a right of independence from a city just for the fact that their inhabitants are richer?
Spaniards (which includes catalans) do not want the independence of Catalonia because they are very happy as it is, a country with richer regions and poorer regions and all of them with exactly the same taxing code, the same rights and obligations. Poorer people do not owe nothing to richer people and being rich does not afford you special rights.
There is no discrimination in Spain: everybody pays the same taxes. A rich person in Barcelona pays the same as a rich person in Seville, and a poor person in Girona pays the same as a poor person in Valencia.
Teaching on September 29, 2011 ·
Jeronimo
Almanzor was in Barcelona in 985not in 988, he did a summer “rapiña” he didn’t stay.
Since the fall of the caroling dinasty in 987, any count of barcelona has accepted any french king, and any french king had control on the principality of cathalonia.
The king of Spain Juan Carlos I has officially the title of King of Jerusalem, do you really think that Jerusaqlem is a province of Spain??? That’s why it exists the difference between “de facto” and “de iuris” when the american colonies split from Spain and declared themsel independent. Spain didn’t accepted, they didn’t recognised the independence, but de facto they were completly independent. Canada was independent since 1867, but United Kingdom didn’t recognize until december 1931… Portugal didn’t recognize the independence of his indian colonies until 1974.
During middle age the lords like to have claims over the lands of any other lord. But the true is that any Capet had control of the principality.
But anyway,If your speech is that Cathalonia was part of France until 1258, why you can said that was part of Aragon since 1137 ??
Teaching on September 29, 2011 ·
JERONIMO
What????
You said: “There is no discrimination in Spain: everybody pays the same taxes. A rich person in Barcelona pays the same as a rich person in Seville, and a poor person in Girona pays the same as a poor person in Valencia.”
Cathalns pay more taxes than people who lives in Madrid, and this is because Madrid as a Capital has all the public offices, so companies must move there, so they pay taxes in Madrid. As consequence Madrid cut taxes, than in the rest of the country we still paying, as Madrid has less taxes, many people from the rest of Spain is moving his companies to Madrid. Is that fair???
What it will happened if Cathalans do that???
Anyway, I would like that you remember what was the PER… Per was only avaliabe in Andalucia and Extremadura, and allows that rural workers only need to work 70 days per year to recive a full year of unemployment payments…
Obviously that was pay with the money of rich regions, but in Cathalonia we didn’t have rigth to the PER…
So you can said whatever you want, but it still being a true, it doesn’t exists equality.
But Cathalonia doesn’t wants to be independent for economic reasons, economy it’s only a justification.
Teaching on September 29, 2011 ·
Just as an example I pay 49% of IRPF in Cathalonia, if you earn the same in Madrid you will pay 43%…
So we don’t pay the same
devta on September 29, 2011 ·
All that is not real. Don’t see politicians are playing with you?
The more confronted we (citicens) are, the more the claim and obtain.
Left or Right, blue or red, is just a game, the make bussiness together.
As example: Aguirre (president of the community of Madrid) fron the PP (popular party,conservative) with Bono (formerly president of Castilia La Mancha community) from PSOE (socialdemocrats) they did together the AVE train station (high speed train station) in Guadalajara, to allow a big (then) bussiness selling 9000 expensive houses in a land with nothing other interest except to be owned by the family of the first one.
A person of the PSOE earned 50.000 millions of pesetas (above 300 millions of Euros) just for doing of interface between the parts.
All this money (Not only this little commission, but also the money from -now broken- Caja Guadalajara) now is out of the country, mainly in Brasil, doing the same.
Discussions about division is just help politicians to hold the control over us.
And all the theme about autodeterminism in politics in special in Spain is artificial. But it is becoming so noisy that now is becoming real.
Take what unites and construct, leave what separates and destroy.
Finally a nation is just an instrument to organize people and work on perform our lives all the rest is noise.
And the Sun itself and the Earth is being noisy enough to give more time to this things.
Jeronimo on September 29, 2011 ·
Again a load of bollocks.
Teaching,
IRPF (spanish for IRS income taxes) are exactly the same in Barcelona and Madrid. With the exact same rate everywhere in Spain. They are set by the central government and they do not differentiate on where they are applied.
Now, there are also local taxes, set by local authorities and spent by local authorities. Those change from place to place. Then again, local authorities are chosen by local people. Madrid nor its population has anything to say about those local taxes in Barcelona, nor how much they are, nor what are they spent in.
The Count of Barcelona ruled that land under the power of the king of France until 1258. This does not have anything to do with the fact that in 1137 the king of Aragon was also the Count of Barcelona. He was King because of his mother and Count because of his father. Then, in 1258, the king of France reached and agreement (treaty of Corbeil (*)) where he ceded the lands of the County of Barcelona and others to the King of Aragon, in exchange to some Counties north of the Pyrenees. Later a King of Aragon married a Queen of Castille and Spain was formed.
So, as I said, Catalonia has never ever been independent. Nothing wrong with that, just a fact of history.
This does not preclude that Catalonia might be independent in the future; In this day and age it is not a matter of kings but of citizens. That would be a decision to be made by everyone who has a claim about that part of Spain: all the Spanish citizens, including, of course, the catalans, because they are as spanish as anyone else.
(*) What would be the point of that treaty if according to you Catalonia was independent by then? Why would that treaty have the signature of the king of France? Your claims are simply ridiculous!
Teaching on September 29, 2011 ·
JERONIMO
You don’t have any idea, you only said and stupidity after another:
IRPF Changes from one region to other, and specially it changes a lot in the comunidades forales.
This is basic Knowdolege. So I souppouse that you should be in High School, and that you don’t read any newspaper.
http://www.telepoliza.com/blog/?p=214 This link should help you to understand.
From where do you take, that in 1137 The count of Barcelona was king of Aragon because her mother…
The Count of Barcelona married Petronilla de Aragon in 1150, he was proclamed prince of Aragon in 1137, but for his militar power, not for family heritage. The son of him, became the first King of Aragon who comes from “Casal de Barcelona”.
The traty of Corbeil, it was an agreement to finish the catar war, where the Crown of Aragon lost a lot of land and a lot of rigths, so to introduce something positive the King of Aragon requested to writte that the king of France renunce to his rigth over the principality of Cathalonia. Rigths that didn’t exist, because any Capet has been recognised, and bassically because in the Catar war, the King of France allways had recognised the titularity of the Catar lands as a responsability of the Count of Barcelona, he did an invasion, and he recognised.
Teaching on September 29, 2011 ·
JERONIMO
Also, for your information in the Court of Barcelona it was ambassadors from England, Germanic Empire… Even France…
Jeronimo on September 29, 2011 ·
Such nonsense.
So now Prince Charles of England does not belong to the house of Windsor but to that of Greece and Denmark. Because that is his father´s birth name. Is that what you are saying?
We have the same case in Alfonso II of Aragon, king of Aragon and Count of Barcelona. His mother was the Queen and his father was just a Count that became Prince by marriage. A Prince Consort. Alfonso II was King because of his mother, nothing to do with his father military power or anything else. He was the King because of being the son of a Queen. And then he was also Count of Barcelona, after his father, under the power of the King of France.
So Catalonia had embassies? I understand Catalonia have “embassies” right now as well. The same happens with other regions of Spain, with Andalusia, Balearic Islands, Asturies, Rioja …. It does not mean anything, they are just offices to promote tourism and spread the culture. If you go to Brussels you will find tens of regions from all over europe with a representatives office. I would recommend you visit those that come from wine producing areas.
It is hilarious that you say the King of France had always recognised the independence of Catalonia…. but…. he signed a treaty giving it away. How can that be? How can they be independent and at the same time under his power? It is simply ridiculous.
PS: This is my last answer. You can mix your nonsense with some more personal insults if that is the only way you know to defend an argument. Bye.
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Devta Singh Khalsa on September 26, 2011 ·
This is a good viewpoint, it is sad, true, but such is life, now, here in spain.
Another problem is that this separatism is just a big noise, and as a noise is becamming a problem.
And the origin of that is saddly, our politic class.
I’s simple, you give they money (any case they took all of them) they decide how to use or waste it. And they have no other responsability, including at a political level.
If you broke a compañy yo can be fired and sue. If you broke the country, you just go 4 years to the oposition bank and try again to win.
Sometimes, neither this.
This is the problem the separation between responsability and freedom.