The Bush administration came up with this absurd concept of the war on terror as if terror was a tangible enemy that one could truly fight. And using this concoction the US conducted war style operations on civilian populations something that is not only immoral but it only fuels terrorism. Now the paradox is that US ally Israel, a country that truly is at war, denies being at war. And the results are awkward. When USA bombs Somalia as it did yesterday, looking for Islamic terrorists to kill and killing innocent civilians in the process ,the US government justifies its actions by arguing that they are at war with terrorists everywhere. But Israel instead who is at war with a Hamas led Gaza says instead that it is not at War. To me Gaza is a country regardless of whether it´s been recognized by most or not. It has borders, it is independent of the rest of Palestine in its policy making, it has its own government. And Gaza is at war with Israel. Rockets frequently fly from Gaza to Israel and Israel frequently attacks and invades Gaza. There is regular fighting going on. Now while I consider US policy fighting terrorism unreasonable and inhumane as terrorists should be fought by the rule of law, as we do here in Spain, captured, judged and imprisoned and not bombarded from the air I consider Israel´s policy equally confusing. Israel is not fighting terrorists, it is fighting a newly independent country whose government and population are hostile to Israel. Israel is really at war, not USA. And while I was a supporter of the Gaza withdrawal I do agree with many commentators who now say that the withdrawal was a failure and that a West Bank withdrawal would be suicidal. Gazans had a great opportunity to build a new nation and show the way for all Palestine. Instead they have continued to focus on Israel as the source of all evil joining the nations that prefer to play victims than to grow out of their problems. I have always wanted Palestine to be an independent country but unfortunately Gaza has made it very hard for tiny Israel to risk having rockets falling into its civilian population from all sides. In this blog and at my foundation´s I greatly criticized the Israeli invasion of Lebanon for example, an invasion that I considered unnecessary harsh, brutal and counterproductive. But with Gaza Israel has shown tremendous restraint and unfortunately it has not paid off.
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polac on March 5, 2008 ·
Here you can see what’s on in War business, as you know war is a great business:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/index.html
This is a war world map: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/map.htm
Most of this wars are catalogued as “civil war”, and this is the reason why it’s a so good business, meanwhile producers countries have no formal Declaration of War, factories can continue selling arms to any of the participants parts.
Marco Bressan on March 5, 2008 ·
Total mortars fired from Gaza to Israel in the last 7 years: 5525. Total casualties: 640. Total civilian casualties due to Israel Defence Forces last Saturday: 63 (including 15 children). That’s about 10% in one day. I’m sorry Martin but for some of us it is hard not to put all these murderers in the same boat.
Haim Ac. on March 5, 2008 ·
Martin,
You wrote:
“Israel is not fighting terrorists, it is fighting a newly independent country whose government and population are hostile to Israel”
I wonder what your definition of terrorists and independence is. Maybe we should sit in a coffee place in Sderot and discuss about it?
Your conclusions do not clear the basic question about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict (I’m sure this wasn’t your intention here anyway), but it brings a couple of old ideas to mi mind:
1.- Regarding Israel military actions: “Damn if you do and Damn if you don’t”
2.- Regarding the Palestinians:” They never miss an opportunity to miss and opportunity (Abba Eban in Geneva,1973)
I do agree that the Palestinias, unfortunately, did not find the formula to move on. Maybe our occidental view of “move on” does not apply to this cultures, like the western concept of “Democracy” does not works in Irak.
Saludos
Haim
Martín Alejandro Carmona Selva on March 6, 2008 ·
Martín… how many Israelis died from those “rockets” fired from Gaza? How many Palestinians died from the Israeli reprisals?
I know this is a complex subject -and I can’t declare myself that neutral- but… Hammas was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED IN CLEAN PUBLIC ELECTION. So, it’s like USA -and their allies- only like DEMOCRACY when the ones they wish are those who win!
If you ask me, I believe that Israel shouldn’t be there -and don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that it shouldn’t exists-. It could never -ever- be a lasting peace when we place a foreign subject in a place it doesn’t belong.
It’s like putting Madrid in Euskadi, or, Washington D.C. in Havana.
I guess the west should have found a better place to place -no pun intended- Israel. Why not in Europe? After all, there was the Holocaust and, AFAIK, Palestina had nothing to do with it.
Please, don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to start a stupid fight or to provoke anything, but I did studied a lot about history and politics and I don’t get why they decided to put Israel there. -I know, it was the original place and so on… but being from the enemy for so many time is like putting a cat to watch after a mice.
G. on March 6, 2008 ·
Its a paradox indeed, that reflects what business as usual for each country is.
Palestinians militants are firing Qassams over Sderot every now and them and
IDF reacts to this, this has become a routine.
In 2005 IL decided to withdraw from Gaza although israelis did not reach an internal agreement.
Many of them, mostly settlers, were against this.
At that time I thought they were extremists driven by religion and
when talking to israeli friends, even from the blue side (in favour of withdrawal),
they confessed they were afraid that the action will not fix any problem.
And they were right.
Life and war goes on, business as usual.
Emmanuel Chriqui on March 6, 2008 ·
Hi Martin,
Maybe the reason is that both Israel and the US consider it is important to appear stronger than they really are. Their motivations are of course different, but the price to pay in both cases is immense: human life and very negative communication impact.
In both cases they seem to lose on the long run. The US, because once you’re alone on the top of the world, you have more chances to go down than to stay where you are. And for Israel because even her most moderate enemies consider her existence as a temporary phenomenon.
eva on March 6, 2008 ·
another type of war. interesting article on digital underground in cuba
Greg on March 7, 2008 ·
Israel’s goal is to kill Terrorists, the many terrorists in Gaza’s role is to kill innocent civillians. Israel does what it has to. Imagin living in constant scare of missiles falling on your hometown, be in constant fear if your spouse or children are safe, constant sirens going off and constantly living underground in bomb shelters. Your once vibrant town has become a ghost town because of these terrorists. This is wht the people of Sderot deal with. Israel is protecting it’s people and they do what they have to period!
Martín Alejandro Carmona Selva on March 7, 2008 ·
> Imagin living in constant scare of missiles falling on your hometown, be in constant fear if your spouse or children are safe, constant sirens going off and constantly living underground in bomb shelters…
Greg, no imaging being EXPELLED from your home -for ages-, separated from your loved ones, put into REFUGEE camps and not letting do anything since your oppressors -Israel- controls everything you do.
So, it’s like Palestinians must wait seated in their houses and watch as Israel destroys THEIR LAND, THEIR HOUSES and THEIR SCHOOLS. and KILLS their CHILDREN, because if they do anything they’ll be considered terrorists.
Apart from that, please, do not forget the FACT that Israel didn’t comply with ANY of the 72 resolutions/sanction UN put on them and than less than 10% -to be generous- of Jews died against 90% of the Palestinians.
According, again, to UN -which cannot be considered pro Palestinian- when this happens it’s call a MASSACRE and not a war.
So, please, before writing anything, read a little, do some research and try to think straight!
Martín Alejandro Carmona Selva on March 7, 2008 ·
Greg… so, following path way of thinking, “they are protecting their once vibrant towns”, so, Palestinians must bomb Israel, since before Israel was there -and FOR AGES- their life was nice and their towns were humble but vibrant?
Come on, man, think a little before writing!
Greg on March 7, 2008 ·
Haha you claim that palestinians had vibrant cities before Israel was established? You must be joking! Maybe you should be the one doing the reading and find out that many of the palestinians came to Israel only after the influx of jews came in. They did so because there was now any more job oppurtunities and they wanted a better lifestyle then they would have in the aarab countries of their origin! Again Israel does not target civillians while the terrorists do..And Israel expelled no one from thei land, that is a pure lie…Maybe not the only ones they did expell from their land where their own people, the people of Gush Katif, they did so to achieve peace….but no that is too much to ask for from the palestinian terrorists! Israel does not kill their children or their schools unless their children are poining missiles or guns and are a threat or unless these “sschools” are schools where terorism is taught..And dont get me started on following resoloutions…Israel followed their side of the Geneva peace confrence yet the palestinian government didnt even follow one…The UN can be considered pro-palestinian…IT IS 100%! It is rediculous for Israel to stand by and let what is happening go on, 8 innocent children were murdered and many injured yesterday learning torah, Innocent children aged 14-19 gunned down in the heart of Jerusalem in a seminary, again Israel is protecting its people and targetting terrorists while the palestinian peoople target innocent civilians…so how bout you think a little before writing and read the history of this conflict the palestinians were not their for ages…as long as they stopped bombing and murdering inncocent people there would be peace…unfortunately i think thats too much to ask for!
Haim Ac. on March 8, 2008 ·
To Martin Alejandro Carmona Selva
In reference to your post #5
to your question of how many died: one innocent live in any side is too much
Also Hitler was democratically elected. What’s your point? Been elected democratically gives green light to kill indiscriminately, as Hamas does?
And where should be Israel? Luckly Israel and the rest of the world didn’t need your opinion in 1948 when the UN resolution approved the partition of the British ruled area into two states, one Arab (not even called “palestinian” on those days) and one Jewish, later declared Israel.
However, the Arabs did follow your reasoning that “There is no room for Jewish people here and Israel should not be here”. And the “independence war” of 1948 started, and it was lost by the arabs neightbors, and Israel survived.
FYI Jewish were living and ruling in the land of Israel from times where there was no Madrid, no Washington and no Havana. The left for 2000 years, and now they are back home.
The west was always trying to find a better place for the Jews: Inquisition, progroms, persecutions Auswitz…You know what? Thanks, but no. We will try our way this time.
I don’t get you wrong, it is just that you are wrong and as an historian you claim to be, there are many sources out there to learn from, and surely you have access to them. Reading “El Pais” or watching “Hard Talk” in the BBC is not the best way to learn about the roots of Jewish-Arab conflict.
I was going to asnwer you post #10, but this is becoming too long. I am only going to say that it is not clear what are you describing, Is it a normal day in Sderot (Israel) of this days?. Is it a description of the lives in Kiryat Shmona (Israel) when the Hisbolla launched hundred of rockets a day during the last Lebanon war? Is it a description of jewish refugees runing hiding from the Nazi persecution? Is it a description of Madrid when Franco bombarded it from air? Is it a description of Berlin on the last days fo the 3rd Reight? Is in Buenos Aires in 1955 when Peron was expelled from the government? Or similarly, take a walk on Pasteur st. in Bs As and see the site where the AMIA building was. You can find about 100 of those innocents victims of the 1992 bombing in the Jewish cemetery in La Tablada. Tell them that Israel is not a right place and explain to them where in the world it is a better place.They already know that Argentina is not
Sincerely
Haim
Martín Alejandro Carmona Selva on March 8, 2008 ·
All, I don’t want to start a discussion on this all since this isn’t the right forum. But you are wrong!
Zionists, not Jews in general, starting to buy land there in 18XX. Then, they said it was their land forever, but as far as I know -and I DO know about this- in the last centuries Jews wasn’t there.
So you recognize Jews LEFT for 2000 years and then come home! So, you ABANDON your home for 100 years and then come back and tell the people living there “Hey, I’m sorry, I left home a century ago but now I decided I wanted to came back so, please leave or I’ll kill you”? Sorry but I don’t get it!
Now, tell me that Jerusalem is Israel and that the wall is being built in Israeli soil, tell that the percentage I gave on each side death is wrong. Then, if you prove me that, I’ll believe you. The 8 children that were brutally killed yesterday were from a far right school, where they learn how to love ILLEGAL settlements.
Also, how many black Jews are in Israel? So, there are not black Jews in this world, or it’s just that you are discriminating?
Why my friend -whose father is Jew and his mother is not- has to lie saying that she was Jew in order to live in Israel?
Tell me that’s not true that non Jews have a huge trouble to buy land or anything there.
Tell me also, that an Arab killed Rabin.
Tell me, by the way, that Lebanon wasn’t the Swiss of Middle East before the war.
When you are able to prove me all this, we’ll be talking.
As a bonus, how can you say that UN is pro Palestinian? If USA is there, it cannot be pro Palestinian.
So, tell me again, why didn’t Israel complied with those 72 resolutions? -don’t tell me Palestinians didn’t comply with many also, tell me why they didn’t do-
Israel -thanks to American Tax payers- has one of the most powerful army in the world, while Palestinians are struggling to survive.
So, again, tell me why Israel killed a whole Palestinian family that was on the beach last year?
Did you know that there are more Palestinian refugees than Jews in the second world war?
Hey, I know, your people suffered a lot, but why do the same with the other side as reprisal? Why building another Berlin wall OUTSIDE Israel territory? -I guess that the fact that some of the most important rivers on the region stay in Israel side is mere coincidence, right?-
Speaking of the war with Lebanon last year, what’s -another coincidence- 30 km from the border inside Lebanon? Yup river Litani.
How does it come that Israel forbids the movement of Palestinians -Gazans- not only between Israel alone but ALSO with other INDEPENDENT countries? -Yup, Palestinians broke the fence these days-
Now some articles you may read:
http://antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=9486
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5212870.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215366.stm
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article5078.shtml
http://guerrillaradio.iobloggo.com/archive.php?eid=1393
http://www.actionforunrenew.ndo.co.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5185624.stm
[Warning! BBC and Yale University are also pro Palestinian]
I’ll try not to answer back again, since this is not an Israeli-Palestinian forum!
One last thing How many Jews died from Qassam rockets? How many Palestinians? When child die in Israel is an attack, when they die in Palestina is “collateral damage”. Come on!
Haim Ac. on March 8, 2008 ·
In order to clarify a bit:
My last paragraph on post #13 (“I was going to answer…”) is referring to post #10, specifically the first and second paragraphs (“Imaging living in constant scare of missiles….”)
My apologies for not writing it clearly before.
Haim
Matias Bergmann on March 8, 2008 ·
Martín Alejandro Carmona Selva,
You claim you know about something that you don’t… There was a diaspora, sure, when most jews left Israel after the destruction of the second synagogue. But Jews never left the so called Palestine. Jews always lived there (although not as many as before the diaspora).
Marcelo Levit on March 14, 2008 ·
Carmona Selva,
how old are you?
1 or 2 ?
Come on man, you dislike jews, admit it, release yourself.
Antoin O Lachtnain on March 15, 2008 ·
I think that the region is suffering under the old European idea of the nation-state, that the ideal situation is that there be a direct link between your religion and ethnic background and the state you live in.
The reality is that most aspects of the operation of a state have very little to do with religion and ethnic background. Collecting bins, building roads, developing the economy – none of these things have much to do with where you go to church.
To govern their little part of the world successfully, the israelis and palestinians are going to have to figure out how they are going to work together to make their land prosperous.
On the one hand, the Palestinians have failed to embrace and exploit the opportunities that Israeli-driven foreign direct investment has brought to the land. There are other advantages that the Israelis have brought too, like progressive, democratic policies. On the other hand, Israelis have failed to mesh themselves into the local structures in a way that is beneficial to the wider region.
It shouldn’t really matter whether a particular strip of land is Israeli or Palestinian. All that really determines is who is supposed to collect the bins and fix the road. No amount of fighting or border-drawing is going to change the fact that the Israelis and Palestinians now have a shared destiny, whether they like it or not.
Martín Alejandro Carmona Selva on March 16, 2008 ·
Marcelo Levit, I’m 30, and I don’t dislike Jews. But I don’t really like that much Zionists.
Again, I don’t think this is the right forum to discuss this, but if anyone is willing to PROVE that all I said is a lie, well, I’ll have to admit that I was wrong.
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Wanunu on March 5, 2008 ·
Martin:
Why is that you avoid to talk about the Zionist forces in Israel and the USA? Every time so far that you can not explain to your readers the genesis of Jewish fascism you miss a great opportunity to come along clean.
By clean I do not mean that you are part of then, but as a Jew you can not ignore the difference and look the other way. So please do not try to be sincere pretending to ignore what is a more that documented reality.
in Spain Christians admit the fascism phenomena and you do not need to go out of your way to find convince fascists at any tapa bar.