What Happens When a Country Gives Up Religion: as Spain Shows, Nothing Much

Thank you Spanish ! Thank you Italian!
What a pity that France which has break the link between religion and states a very long time ago is more conservative in many subjects than Spain.

Interesting article, I agree with your conclusion, Michael Moore makes a similar point in ‘Bowling for Columbine’ about the proliferation of guns and violent crime. Just because a society has more guns than another country doesn’t mean that there will be more murders, similarly, just because a country professes to have a higher quotient of actively religious people doesn’t seem to NECESSARILY imply that that country will be similarly more moral / ethical than a country that is not as actively religious.

I was just wondering, how the link to being more liberal with regards to P2P comes from being more liberal with regard to other ‘moral’ issues that we no longer have prejudices or problems with, i.e. abortion, gay marriage. Surely (and I’m not getting on my soap box here) P2P is still stealing intellectual copyright? And most people would agree that it’s not a particularlly fine thing to do morally or ethically. Not that I have an issue with P2P per se, I’m only saying that it seems a bit of a leap to go from discussions of abortion, euthanasia etc to P2P.

Anyway, thanks for the observations, Claudio

Martin, you have a glorified perception of Spain. I agree with you that religion and ethical behavior are not tied. Japan would be another example of a very civic society with little presence of religion. But all the changes in Spain have bought some problems. Consumerism is at US levels. Families visit El Corte Inglés (the monopolistic Spanish department store) on Sunday. That is the New Temple for many Spaniards. The most widely prescribed medicines in our public health systems are anti depressants (second consumer in the world after France). The value of education is non existent. We have fallen below even the “stupid” Americans in the rankings. Only Portugal and Greece fare worse in Europe.

As you, I am a secular person. I value open societies and I do not think that our decadent moral values are tied to lack of religion in our lives. It has more to do with a process of social engineering, designed to create happy and hedonistic submissive consumers, easy to manipulate by politicians, banks and real state companies and willing to accept whatever changes are deemed to be “good” for them.

A society does not need religion to behave ethically, but in needs a vibrant civic society, lacking in Spain, but vocal in countries such as US. A side note: in a recent corruption worldwide index, Spain falls below the US and other “religious” countries.

Claudio,

I believe that it is up to people to be moral. I am not a fan of morality through religion, nor am I a fan of morality through legislation. I believe that the most moral people are the ones who choose to be moral on every moral choice they face. I think the most moral people in the world are the one who build their OWN moral standards, not those impose by others be legislators or religious figures. Abortion is a crime in my native country of Argentina. I am opposed to abortion being a crime. Still I think that abortion is generally a sad event, it is hard to say that one is in favor of abortion as if abortion was something great. It is not. But abortion can be the lesser of two evils and in any case I am in favor of a woman to choose. There are many things that I believe are not great but not for that they should be illegal. For example I am not a big fan of prostitution, I believe that sex linked to love is better than sex linked to money, but should this be a crime between two consenting adults? Now regarding the fact that Spain does not protect intellectual property as much as the USA I don´t think that that in itself is so bad. Fon is an open source company, I personally believe that intellectual property is a concept that does more harm than good especially in the areas of patents for computer science. And regarding music and movies I believe that of course people who make movies and music deserved to be paid but I also think that the best music and the best movies come out of people who don´t do it for money. I have built http://www.ya.com for profit and http://www.educ.ar not for profit and enjoyed both enormously. It´s a tough call. Would a world in which Leonardo Di Caprio makes 1/10th of the money he makes per film be a worse world?

Interesting facts about Spain, really.

On the issue of euthanasia, the best Spanish film of all time (in my opinion) and this is my review:

El Mar Adentro, based on the real-life story of Ramón Sampedro, a ship’s mechanic paralyzed at the age of twenty-six by a freak diving accident, tells of his struggle for almost thirty years to change the euthanasia laws in Spain. Ramon, in a passionate tour de force performance by Javier Bardem (Oscar-nominated for Before Night Falls) orchestrates his legal and philosophical stance from a prostrate position in his bed, a quadriplegic from the neck down. He’s aided and abetted by his simple family, a team of lawyers led by the elegant Julia (Belén Rueda) with whom he falls in love, and various members of the public who learn of his plight via the television, including Rosa (Lola Dueñas), a straight-talking single mother who ultimately offers to help him commit suicide because she loves him.
Although the subject matter may seem somber, if not downright depressing, the director Alejandro Amenábar (Abre los Ojos, The Others) doesn’t adopt a sensationalist, maudlin or manipulative approach. Instead, whilst we get a feeling of where his sympathies lie, he gives equal credence to both sides of the euthanasia argument – intellectually and emotionally – through the dignified and eloquent points Ramon presents and also the heartfelt counterpoints presented by his stubborn, “salt of the earth” elder brother. Overall, we’re left feeling inspired and deeply affected by a man who, inherently, felt the deepest sorrow of a life lost, but whose spirit and sharp wit was so alive that those around him wanted to prolong it as long as humanly possible. Especially memorable is the comical exchange between Ramon and a quadriplegic Jesuit priest, who wants to highjack Ramon’s case for his own grand-standing. During their verbal joust, an intermediary – a green trainee – runs up and down the stairs to convey their respective positions.
The entire film is expertly and elegantly shot by Amenábar within the tight confines of Ramon’s bedroom and the chaotic courtroom. There are also touchingly realized dream sequences in which Ramon takes flight from his bed and swoops from the open window over the rolling emerald hills and down to the nearby beach, the site of his unfortunate accident. It has a spellbinding effect, reflecting the futile solitude of his condition while adding a distinct visual tone of hope. As his feet move in the sand, his memory conjuring forth the smells, sounds and sights of the sea from within his own head, we’re privy to those sensations and imagine it’s our feet in the sand. We leave the film not feeling futile, but quietly thankful.

I agree in some things, disagree in some others, but what you said about prostitution in Spain is not true: prostitution is not legal neither ilegal nor regulated in Spain, it is hidden behind pubs and night clubs businesses. Girls on the street can stay because it is not forbidden for them (although in Barcelona if a girl is cached dealing with the customer, both will get a 300 € fine).

Regulating prostitution means considering it as a real job with social insurance and so. Being legal means that it is named in the laws and having some regulations.

Greetings,

Santi

This is one of the more interesting human debates of the past say … 100 centuries.

Not that I will claim to be able to dish out the solution here but I think 2 major ingredients have been omitted f what is largely a darwinistic process - which adapts continuously to the ever changing environment.
The First is CULTURE of the spanish people which has led to what prabably is a very much improved state of being. I dare say that the sunny coast , nice women/men and booming economy has helped (although I’m surprised by the anti deprecent point).

The second item is GOVERNMENT and national/regional leadership. Although one response seems to accuse of sheep herding at play, a country has alway done well when it had good harvests (luck) and smart/visionary leadership. We can certainly see what bad leadership does to companies and the same way about countries , even if it takes a bit longer due to the control/influence of communication and media.

Religion has always lent itself to be a semi governement tool for control of the masses and its use or abuse is sadly seen too often in all religions and in all times. Like with anything overselling and excessive use of religion will lead to rejection sooner or later because of the negative side effects (fantasism, mistrust…). Interesting to note also that the Catholic church is bankrupt in the US following too many child abuse suits - that may be more a reflection about the leadership and cultural environment than religion itself.

I wonder what the in religion will actually be after 100 years of the current information revolution? Om Malik could write a good analysis of this à la Broadbandits style.

“the story of Spain and Italy also prove that people do not need religion to behave ethically, as Spain and Italy have many less policemen and people in jail per inhabitant than the United States, which happens to be the last mostly religious wealthy country on earth”

could you please explain your assessment that having fewer people in jail in Spain is linked the the ethical behavior of the population? have you ever considered the idea that having fewer people in jail could indicate that the ethical standards in Spain are just not very high in the area of criminal justice, thus resulting in fewer arrests?

“I think the most moral people in the world are the one who build their OWN moral standards, not those impose by others be legislators or religious figures.”

On what do you believe should people “build their OWN moral standards”? let us say that i have drawn up my own set of moral standards for myself. i dont have a car, and it would be nice to have one to drive to work. if my moral standards suggest that stealing your car is right for me, then would i be categorized as one of your “most moral people in the world” because i have built and acted upon my own moral standards, which were definitely not imposed by legislators or religious figures?

Beckyy,

This is not just Spain, the same is true of all over Europe. There are less people in jail simply because people commit less crimes than in America. The European system is based more on education, the American is based more on deterrent and punishment.

Or could it be that the fact that less things being considered “criminal behavior” results in less people in jail? I am from the U.S. and I think that we try to criminalize too many things. This results in a higher inmate/convicted population.

Marin Varsavsky, i found your article completely on the opposite corner as your comments. I loved your comments, I completely agree with you, but I can’t understand the article linked with your comments perspective.

I only have one thing to add about everything said about Spain as this is where I live: more people need to be sent to prison, i.e. those who commit the same crime again and again but because the laws are so lax are always out on the streets with nothing more than a slap on the wrist. I know I’m not the only person who feels that the law protects criminals rather than its law-abiding citizens. Recently a whole town, who had had enough of living in fear of a certain neighbour, decided to take revenge and burned his house. I’m not condoning this action, but I can certainly understand the reasoning behind it. And also Spains needs more policemen.

I think another interesting point contrasting more religious countries vs secular ones is the level of violence between them, both internal and external. I am constatntly flabbergasted how many US politicians are constantly saying they are adamantly “pro-life” meanwhile they rush the country to war for the slightest cause, real or imaginged, and then ignore international law by engaing in torture, many times against civilians. The country is armed to the teeth, with teenagers shooting up schools on a monthly basis, the murder rate is the highest in the civilized world, capital punishment, which most civilzed countries consider barbaric and vengeful, is still thriving, and movies and TV shows glorify violence. Meanwhile, the richest country on the planet lets thousands of African children starve on a daily basis without a response and its division between the rich and poor widens evey year. I suspect many of the same things could be said of other religious societies, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Nigeria, etc. Give me secular Scandanavia over religious societies any day.

“religious countries vs secular ones is the level of violence between them, both internal and external”

Nazi Germany,
Maoist China,
North Korea,
The Soviet Union,
The Khmer Rouge,

All atheistic regimes. The Iraqi war barely registers compared to the crimes of the above.

“with teenagers shooting up schools”

Not too many Christian teenagers, you may be surprised to learn, shoot up their schools. Mostly inner-city blacks who don’t give a damn for religion, one way or the other.

adamantly “pro-life”

That refers to abortion, I’m sure you’re aware. It doesn’t necessarily apply outside of context.

“the richest country on the planet lets thousands of African children starve”

And Christians are responsible how? Why? Didn’t think so. The economics of food production and distributions are so vastly complicated that you can’t even _begin_ to attribute fault. And yet, oh, it must be the _richest_ country’s fault. And since the _richest_ country is (allegedly) Christian, then Christianity must be at fault as well. This is sloppy thinking of the first order.

“movies and TV shows glorify violence”

Perhaps you are under the impression that Hollywood is controlled by a cabal of Christians (snort!)

Okay, okay. I devoted five minutes of my life to tearing apart Joe’s comment. The point is this: Think before you type. Think before you _think_.

Franco was mentioned. Okay–Franco was the one European dictator who _didn’t_ enter WWII. And–he was also the only dictator who was Christian. Now, that’s a very weak connection, but I bring it up to illustrate the simple point that, when you’re throwing out data points in wild fashion, it’s easy to simply exclude the ones that don’t fit your preconceived answer.

“If anything, Spain proves that societies do not fall apart when they give up religion and almost everything that was illegal becomes legal.”

Their fertility rate is 1.1 and close to 100,000 pregnencies were terminated last year, increasing every year since 1985. Societal collapse will take a few generations.

By the way, I’m irreligious and pro choice. I just don’t think Spain is a particularly good model to hold up.

9/11 was an inside job, perpetrated by the US government under the direction of Bush and Cheney:

http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/911.html

“adamantly “pro-life”
That refers to abortion, I’m sure you’re aware. It doesn’t necessarily apply outside of context.”

Au-contraire, while the popular usage is to apply it to a political stance, the underlying ideology is that human life starts at conception and is so precious, it must be protected at all costs.

Going to war is a manifestation of a political ideology and it almost always results in lives lost. So no pro-war politician can say (s)he is pro-life unless it is almost certain more would die in the absence of the proposed war.

re: atheistic regimes

Atheistic regimes? Hardly. Secular would be more accurate. Yes, there is a big difference. And religiosity of the people or culture is more relevant to the discussion here in any case — not so much the regime.

The point of the article is disproving that lack of religion implies lack of moral behavior — in more formal terms, negating !A -> !B, where A is religiousness, and B is moral behavior.

!A -> !B is equivalent to A or !B, the negation of which is !A and B. That is to say, to disprove the original assertion, show an example where you have demonstrably low religion, but still moral behavior. Only one example is necessary for this argument — however, many are available.

Juan, it wasn´t.

Regarding P2P - P2P is not illegal and it shouldn’t be. Peer 2 Peer technology is currently being used by companies such as Blizzard to make the distribution of data (in this case in the form of updates) more efficient and cost effective. Cracking down on P2P technology is cracking down on innovation and development.

Regarding the use of P2P as a platform for copyright infringement: I am all in favour of copyright infringement. Mostly because the Big Four record labels maintain draconian contracts over the artists - even if you were ’stealing’ through P2P, you’re not stealing from the artist, you’re stealing from the record label. It’s most hypocritical from the record label lobbies to advocate that they’re being damaged by copyright theft when the contracts they sign with artists mean that the artists _lose_ ownership of the rights to their songs to the record label.

Finally, it’s interesting to note that Hollywood was founded where it is because movie studios tried to escape the East, where Edison held a patent over the movie camera technology the movie studios used to produce their films. Essentially, the movie industry is borne on the foundations of ‘copyright theft’, whatever that means.

Free market capitalism is all about competitiveness and keeping an edge. It’s never been about the governments catering to the needs of the Big Four to make as much money as possible. If the record labels are incapable of taking advantage of the innovative technologies presented to the world, then it really isn’t the consumer’s problem. Evolution takes it’s toll on the dinosaurs of the market. It’s also rather naive to claim that it’s hard to take advantage of new tech when iTunes has had visible and incredible success, and the second most succesful online music store (eMusic) doesn’t even use DRM schemes to screw the consumer.

Spain has a correct attitude towards copyright, but the leading edge of thought is in Scandinavia, with the Pirate Party and with the recent Norway ruling demanding that iTunes allow interoperation with other devices.

Hitler.

Catholic.

Sorry, but nice try painting the Nazi movement as “atheist.”

I don’t understand your attempt to correlate p2p activity in your article. It seems far more likely that Spain lacks significant native media production (aka their own “Hollywood”). Why would Spain bother enforcing these types of laws when the benefit for Spanish companies is low? I am speculating of course, but it actually surprises me a little. Other countries with very liberal IP laws (Sweden, Netherlands, etc) are relatively small markets who consume lots of non-native content.

In general the post is very interesting, but I think that’s how most of Europe is nowdays…

Also, regarding Claudio’s comment:
“That is the New Temple for many Spaniards. The most widely prescribed medicines in our public health systems are anti depressants (second consumer in the world after France). The value of education is non existent. We have fallen below even the “stupid” Americans in the rankings. Only Portugal and Greece fare worse in Europe.”

Your claim about Greece and Portugal (at least about Greece that I know of) is completely bogus. Lower GDP per capita (and this by a couple thousand euros), does not mean non-value of education or poorer culture.

Killy-the-Frog, your question about P2P is a valid one. I don’t see the correlation between loss of religion and P2P. However, I disagree with your assumption that downloading songs and movies is illegal. If you download for your own consumption, this is no different than me lending you a CD to listen to. However, if you download to resell someone else’s work without paying for it, then that is not right. Perhaps your comment is trying to point out that downloading is unethical. But so is what the RIAA is doing. Instead of targeting ordinary people who want to enjoy the music they download, they should be going after the pirates reselling the material they download. Until the RIAA gets its priorities right, not many of us are going to sympathize with them.

As for Spain and Italy getting out from under the thumb of the church, I say Congratulations! It just goes to show that better education encourages people to question the fairytales the church has been feeding them for centuries.

Now, if only we could educate the Muslims so that they, too, begin to question Islam.

Do you have any sources you could share to show the results you mentioned? Or is this just something you “feel”?

Religion is just fine; as long as it’s kept out of the schools and the gov’t. Who says? Christ says! He said to pay Ceasar his taxes but otherwise to stay neutral to gov’t, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Pope, etal.

Wish I could speak french… or spainish or whatever they speak! =)

In Spain people openly use Limewire, Zudeo, eMule for legal and what in other countries is illegal content without fear of being prosecuted. The only truly illegal activity in is people who download music/movies, print CDs or DVDs and sell them.,/i>

That is so blind and ignorant on your part. It is illegal. If you do not pay for it, you technically don’t own the intellectual property rights. It may not “seem” like stealing because you are taking from the huge record labels. But the fact still remains that stealing is stealing no matter how small.

Well Spain does have much to offer.
Lots of French and British are leaving their native lands for Spain….id like to know more about legal-prostitution if so id love to go to Spain..never wanted to before but youve wet my lips.
Spanish girls are HOT! or Caliente!

spain, as beautiful as it is, is not at the avante garde of Europe. The only time it was at the forefront of the world was when it was under the Muslims.

Add Greece to your list!

Kudos to Spanish people for realizing the difference between god and religion.

> Franco was mentioned. Okay–Franco was the one
> European dictator who _didn’t_ enter WWII.
> And–he was also the only dictator who was
> Christian.

Mussolini was catholic. Quite a lot so. Sorry, pal.

Marc. How can education be considered improved if it encourages people to question the absolute truth (excuse me, “fairytales”) provided by core Christian beliefs derived from the Bible?

Now before you label me ignorant and disillusioned, I assure you that I’m aware of the fact that the Church, be it the Catholic Church, or the various other denominations of Christianity, does not have a perfect history. The Crusades, Conquest of the Americas, and many other negative activities that even continue today (bombings on abortion clinics) were supported by Christians and have left their mark.

However, none of these negative activities or false beliefs (universe revolves around the earth) are supported by core Christian values found in the Bible. They are the results of corrupt humans who have misinterpreted or abused the religion and used it as a front for power and personal gain.

This is Similar to how many governments have and are being used buy corrupt officials. The only difference is that Governments can never be perfect because of humans, whereas the Bible and the truth in it is perfect, because its making was free of human interference.

So to say that Christianity is wrong and full of fairytales because of the false beliefs and problems caused by people in the religion, is ludicrous. The truth may be twisted and used for corrupt reasons, but it remains the truth.

I would also hope that if anyone responds to this, that they would stray from any marginalization of Christianity merely saying how ‘absurd it is to believe in God,’ or associate Christianity with fairytales, mysticism, or something paradoxical to reality and then leave it at that.

If you’re going to claim it as false, show some evidence or logical reasoning, otherwise your comments are just hollow insults.

onetwothree, please pick up a book once in awhile. The Nazi regime was CHRISTIAN. To its very core. Allow me to quote Mein Kampf (http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm):

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”

I wonder why some people here are lumping Italy together with Spain. Though abortion and divorce are legal in Italy, prostitution, drug personal use and gay marriage are definitely not.
The catholic church is still powerful in Italy.
It must be said, thoug, that many intellectuals in Italy are openly atheist (e.g. Umbert Eco) as some politicians (e.g. former Prime Minister D’Alema)

Swampfoot. While Hitler may have been a pronounced Christian, he also drew many ideas from Nietzsche, who was blatantly against the idea of any God at all. Hitler’s actions were contradictory to his acclaimed religion, and fell more in line with Nietzsche than anything else. It’s one more example of someone abusing religion and using it as a front for power and personal gain.

“Nothing Much”!!!?? Come on, the before and after that you described is something much. Giving up religion is huge thing in itself. The disappearance of morals is only natural when the religion that kept it in place is gone. But don’t tell me that the before and after is nothing much. Last time I checked, the truth is universal and so is right and wrong. It doesn’t matter what the majority thinks. The majority is not always right you know.

Anyways, continue with your nude beaches, your orgies, and your drugs. Don’t forget to take your kids and your grandparents to your parties since their is nothing wrong with those things, right?

You have a religion. Your religion is your desires. That is what you worship. You are enslaved by it and completely devoted to it and will die on this religion. You will teach it to your children and it will continue.

Here are your 6 commandments:
abortion, drugs, sex, gambling, prostitution, gay marriage

And these are high and noble morals? Grow up and practice some self-discipline.

Take a good look at the many hatreds of “the good book” at: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

For human justice you need to leave organized religion behind and embrace faith where faith belongs, in humanity. Faith in humanity prevents doing harm to others; when we lose faith in each other by replacing it with faith in an imaginary superman, faith is misplaced and leads to hatred of groups and individuals.

We know that humans have great imagination and use it to invent fictional stories and fictional characters. We also know that all the many gods of history have the characteristics of fictional characters. The obvious conclusion is that gods are not real.

Hitler and Stalin were very bad examples of humanity, but they were both examples of headstrong Christians. Stalin was kicked out of Seminary school in his fifth year because he was too much of an activist for the staid Orthodox Church. After investing so many years, I’m sure he had some getting even on his mind, but it is most telling that after the war, when he had little to gain, he named the Orthodox Church to be the State Church; his heart was still very much in it. Read: “Hitler and Stalin:Parallel Lives”. The state church of Russia is still Orthodox despite US lies about it being being Atheist.

When one assumes that “good books” were inspired by gods, so can one believe that the likes of Hitler and Stalin were inspired by the same. “Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you
commit atrocities.” - Voltaire

Surely we can’t judge humanity by its worst examples; that would be like judging gods, priests, the RC Church, etc. by their worst attributes and deeds. I daresay that humans for the most part are good and well meaning despite some less wholesome traits. Steve Pinker wrote: “The conscious mind- the self or soul - is a spin doctor, not the commander in chief. “, and so we spin whatever yarns make us feel better about ourselves and the real, scary yet wondrous, world and universe in which we find ourselves. Such yarns are evident in the Bible; only a fool would believe they are true. For a religious liar, lies are Truth and scientifically proven truths are lies. It is so telling that the KKK and the Mafia (and the Vatican’s links with organized crime) are so monotheistic.

That is your opinion. When Spain starts taking away freedoms, you might begin to understand. Right now it seems as if you are very free, but that, my friend is but an illusion.