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	<title>Comments on: Do we want there to be no rich people or no poor people?</title>
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	<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html</link>
	<description>Blog of an entrepreneur</description>
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		<title>By: Tomas Krag</title>
		<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167597</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomas Krag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 15:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/?p=2052#comment-167597</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t quite decide whether i agree with your overall conclusion, but i do disagree vehemently with your argumentation. The wealth of the founder of IKEA is irrelevant, the fact being that Sweden is on a respectable 3rd place i n the UN Gini index, as well as being well-placed in the human development index. 

It may be true that all successful countries have incredibly rich people, but so do (by your own admission) a number of unsuccessful countries. By saying that your rule of thumb doesn&#039;t apply in countries where wealth is amassed due to exploitation of resources, you are honouring a long-time tradition of economists, who build a model, then discount all cases that disagree with their model.

I would counter-argue that there is a huge correlation between being highly-ranked in the Gini index and highly-ranked in the Human Development Index, and that the US, not Nigeria is the exception to the rule. And egalitarianism, as proven by the scandinavian example is the way to eliminate poverty.

As I started of saying, in fact i think there&#039;s some truth to both these arguments, i.e. strengthening the ability for entrepreneurs to accumulate wealth to a certain degree is important, but egalitarianism as a goal is at least as important. 

Of course the correllation between HDI and Gini is somewhat strengthened by the fact that HDI is a composite figure which includes the Gini index, but i&#039;ll defend myself with the argument that you brought up these 2 figures, not I ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t quite decide whether i agree with your overall conclusion, but i do disagree vehemently with your argumentation. The wealth of the founder of IKEA is irrelevant, the fact being that Sweden is on a respectable 3rd place i n the UN Gini index, as well as being well-placed in the human development index. </p>
<p>It may be true that all successful countries have incredibly rich people, but so do (by your own admission) a number of unsuccessful countries. By saying that your rule of thumb doesn&#8217;t apply in countries where wealth is amassed due to exploitation of resources, you are honouring a long-time tradition of economists, who build a model, then discount all cases that disagree with their model.</p>
<p>I would counter-argue that there is a huge correlation between being highly-ranked in the Gini index and highly-ranked in the Human Development Index, and that the US, not Nigeria is the exception to the rule. And egalitarianism, as proven by the scandinavian example is the way to eliminate poverty.</p>
<p>As I started of saying, in fact i think there&#8217;s some truth to both these arguments, i.e. strengthening the ability for entrepreneurs to accumulate wealth to a certain degree is important, but egalitarianism as a goal is at least as important. </p>
<p>Of course the correllation between HDI and Gini is somewhat strengthened by the fact that HDI is a composite figure which includes the Gini index, but i&#8217;ll defend myself with the argument that you brought up these 2 figures, not I <img src='http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: David Loughry</title>
		<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167578</link>
		<dc:creator>David Loughry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/?p=2052#comment-167578</guid>
		<description>NOTE: The HTML in my comment #12 didn&#039;t come through, so I&#039;m doing it again. Sorry.

With all due respect to the Martin and the comments so far, this is PRE-INTERNET THINKING. I&#039;ve only realized this myself recently, so I didn&#039;t really get it either for a long time. The web is a different animal, and we&#039;re all just figuring it out. There are fundamental opportunities the Internet presents which we are largely failing to exploit. I’ve developed a new growth model which better leverages networks and the Internet. The FON network would be a great place to use it or experiment with it. I&#039;d love to work with FON as they try it out. For an introduction, click my name above to go right to it. It&#039;s on the ProxThink River blog (http://proxthinkriver.com), and you can search or look for &quot;Letter of Introduction for ProxThink.&quot; The main ProxThink website is http://proxthink.com.
Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NOTE: The HTML in my comment #12 didn&#8217;t come through, so I&#8217;m doing it again. Sorry.</p>
<p>With all due respect to the Martin and the comments so far, this is PRE-INTERNET THINKING. I&#8217;ve only realized this myself recently, so I didn&#8217;t really get it either for a long time. The web is a different animal, and we&#8217;re all just figuring it out. There are fundamental opportunities the Internet presents which we are largely failing to exploit. I’ve developed a new growth model which better leverages networks and the Internet. The FON network would be a great place to use it or experiment with it. I&#8217;d love to work with FON as they try it out. For an introduction, click my name above to go right to it. It&#8217;s on the ProxThink River blog (<a href="http://proxthinkriver.com" rel="nofollow">http://proxthinkriver.com</a>), and you can search or look for &#8220;Letter of Introduction for ProxThink.&#8221; The main ProxThink website is <a href="http://proxthink.com" rel="nofollow">http://proxthink.com</a>.<br />
Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: David Loughry</title>
		<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167575</link>
		<dc:creator>David Loughry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 21:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/?p=2052#comment-167575</guid>
		<description>This post and the comments are PRE-INTERNET THINKING. There are fundamental opportunities the Internet presents which we are largely failing to exploit. I&#039;ve developed a new growth model which better leverages networks. The FON network would be a great place to use it or experiment with it. Here&#039;s a link to a post which explains more (my name in this comment also links to the post):
&lt;a href=&quot;http://proxthink.com/blog/2008/11/28/letter-of-introduction-for-proxthink/&quot; title=&quot;Letter of Introduction for ProxThink&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post and the comments are PRE-INTERNET THINKING. There are fundamental opportunities the Internet presents which we are largely failing to exploit. I&#8217;ve developed a new growth model which better leverages networks. The FON network would be a great place to use it or experiment with it. Here&#8217;s a link to a post which explains more (my name in this comment also links to the post):<br />
<a href="http://proxthink.com/blog/2008/11/28/letter-of-introduction-for-proxthink/" title="Letter of Introduction for ProxThink" rel="nofollow"></a></p>
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		<title>By: LetFelipeBack</title>
		<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167568</link>
		<dc:creator>LetFelipeBack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 19:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/?p=2052#comment-167568</guid>
		<description>The reason why U.S. has a Gini index simmilar to Nigeria is because its billionaires are about 20 times richer than Nigeria&#039;s billionaire. Even though american society seems more egalitarian than nigerian society, even though it seems that having more billionaires the wealth is more equally distributed, the cold statistics show how the wealth is distributed in a similar manner in both countries. As much wealth a google has created and for as many people, that still doesn&#039;t make it immoral that both founders have such fortunes equivalent to thirty times the wealth of the &#039;owner&#039; all the commodity trade of such a natural resources rich nation as Nigeria is.
The Gini index is a very objective measurement and the USA score embarrasingly low. There is no way of extracting a positive reading of such fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason why U.S. has a Gini index simmilar to Nigeria is because its billionaires are about 20 times richer than Nigeria&#8217;s billionaire. Even though american society seems more egalitarian than nigerian society, even though it seems that having more billionaires the wealth is more equally distributed, the cold statistics show how the wealth is distributed in a similar manner in both countries. As much wealth a google has created and for as many people, that still doesn&#8217;t make it immoral that both founders have such fortunes equivalent to thirty times the wealth of the &#8216;owner&#8217; all the commodity trade of such a natural resources rich nation as Nigeria is.<br />
The Gini index is a very objective measurement and the USA score embarrasingly low. There is no way of extracting a positive reading of such fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Varsavsky</title>
		<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167561</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Varsavsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/?p=2052#comment-167561</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167556&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Jack&lt;/a&gt;:

I think you are confusing eliminating poverty, which is what I am writing about, with eliminating poor people, which is of course what I am not talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a href="http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167556" rel="nofollow"> Jack</a>:</p>
<p>I think you are confusing eliminating poverty, which is what I am writing about, with eliminating poor people, which is of course what I am not talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Thierry</title>
		<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167558</link>
		<dc:creator>Thierry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:18:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/?p=2052#comment-167558</guid>
		<description>Martin,

Countries with vast natural resources are not doomed to vastly unfair wealth distribution. In fact, Norway is a lonely but potent counter-example, having both vast natural resources and a fairly egalitarian mindset and society.


So the issue in my mind is more about governance than natural resources. Could democracy and fair (well, fairer) wealth distribution go hand in hand?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin,</p>
<p>Countries with vast natural resources are not doomed to vastly unfair wealth distribution. In fact, Norway is a lonely but potent counter-example, having both vast natural resources and a fairly egalitarian mindset and society.</p>
<p>So the issue in my mind is more about governance than natural resources. Could democracy and fair (well, fairer) wealth distribution go hand in hand?</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167556</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/?p=2052#comment-167556</guid>
		<description>Perhaps it&#039;s a matter of semantics, but I disagree with your conclusion: &quot;the solution is not to have fewer rich people, but to have fewer poor people.&quot;

The problem I see is the possible confusion of the objective with the way to achieve it.  If you&#039;d stated &quot;The goal is not to have fewer rich people, but to have fewer poor,&quot; I&#039;d have to agree 100%.


You see, we won&#039;t make the world a better place by going around &lt;i&gt;eliminating&lt;/i&gt;  poor people, which might be implied by your conclusion.


Indeed, I believe, that inspite of the corrupt ones which come with the package, the world would be better off by having &lt;b&gt;more&lt;/b&gt; rich people because of the fact that weath tends to filter down, which explains why the well-off contries which you cite have a much higher standard of living for everyone, including their poorer citizens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps it&#8217;s a matter of semantics, but I disagree with your conclusion: &#8220;the solution is not to have fewer rich people, but to have fewer poor people.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem I see is the possible confusion of the objective with the way to achieve it.  If you&#8217;d stated &#8220;The goal is not to have fewer rich people, but to have fewer poor,&#8221; I&#8217;d have to agree 100%.</p>
<p>You see, we won&#8217;t make the world a better place by going around <i>eliminating</i>  poor people, which might be implied by your conclusion.</p>
<p>Indeed, I believe, that inspite of the corrupt ones which come with the package, the world would be better off by having <b>more</b> rich people because of the fact that weath tends to filter down, which explains why the well-off contries which you cite have a much higher standard of living for everyone, including their poorer citizens.</p>
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		<title>By: Urbanismo, Sociología y Tecnología &#124; blog &#124; labocana.com</title>
		<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167554</link>
		<dc:creator>Urbanismo, Sociología y Tecnología &#124; blog &#124; labocana.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/?p=2052#comment-167554</guid>
		<description>[...] Blog de Martin Varsavsky.  Do we want there to be no rich people or no poor [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Blog de Martin Varsavsky.  Do we want there to be no rich people or no poor [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Julio Fraire</title>
		<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167553</link>
		<dc:creator>Julio Fraire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/?p=2052#comment-167553</guid>
		<description>I think Latin America is somewhere between your two extreme examples. Our dependency on natural resources is evolving to a more industrial economy. However, we are far from becoming a knowledge-based society. Wealth distribution is still, well, undistributed and our poor people are still really poor.

What do you think are the factors that influence the adoption of knowledge-based activities into our economies/markets?

What do you think about the link between technology development and knowledge-based economies and how do latin american markets influence local technology development?

In my opinion, the answers of these questions might help making more rich people ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Latin America is somewhere between your two extreme examples. Our dependency on natural resources is evolving to a more industrial economy. However, we are far from becoming a knowledge-based society. Wealth distribution is still, well, undistributed and our poor people are still really poor.</p>
<p>What do you think are the factors that influence the adoption of knowledge-based activities into our economies/markets?</p>
<p>What do you think about the link between technology development and knowledge-based economies and how do latin american markets influence local technology development?</p>
<p>In my opinion, the answers of these questions might help making more rich people <img src='http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ramiro</title>
		<link>http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/general/do-we-want-there-to-be-no-rich-people-or-no-poor-people.html#comment-167552</link>
		<dc:creator>Ramiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/?p=2052#comment-167552</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a fair argument, but the opposite is just as true. Basically, that of egalitarianism. There are sound reasons for egalitarianism. Read this book: If you are an egalitarian, how come you&#039;re so rich? By Oxford philosopher Jerry Cohen. There&#039;s the egalitarian argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a fair argument, but the opposite is just as true. Basically, that of egalitarianism. There are sound reasons for egalitarianism. Read this book: If you are an egalitarian, how come you&#8217;re so rich? By Oxford philosopher Jerry Cohen. There&#8217;s the egalitarian argument.</p>
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